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Roman

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Tuesday, October 25th 2011, 2:24am

Never Enough

It is such simple trick but it works all the time.

First be very nice.
Then make people being attached to you.
Then ask them for little bit.
Then make people being dependent on you.
Then ask for more.
Then make people your slaves.
And ask for everything.

Is it just my sixties and seventies growing up or the Pink Floyds were really onto something?

Money
Get away
You get a good job with good pay and you're okay
Money
It's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream
Think I'll buy me a football team

Money
Well, get back
I'm all right Jack
Keep your hands off of my stack
Money
It's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bulls…t
I'm in the high-fidelity first class travelling set
I think I need a Lear jet


It is funny thing. Once you start you cannot stop. It’s an addiction which grows on you the more you get.

How to deal with it? Try doing it right. Again, the Pink Floyds:

Money
It's a crime
Share it fairly
But don't take a slice of my pie


What are you going to give me? Everything? … Not enough!

:love: ?( :scare:

Thank_You

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Wednesday, October 26th 2011, 3:56pm

Poem of Freedom by Thank_You

Poem of Freedom

I am free to move forward

I am free....... from the constant work and worry of demands, living at a computer desk day and night and with no place for myself to be,,, or to go,,, other than to work.

I am free........ to have weekends off and not work late into the night every night.
I am free........ to get an only 40 hour a week job that pays me with financial freedom and to take care of myself

I am free........ to repair my long neglected teeth
I am free.........to go for walks and smell the trees- not just once every 3 months

I am free.........to save some money for my older age in the little time I have left to do so.

I am free .......that even though I didn’t take the time to have children and no longer can , I can take the time to enjoy other peoples children.
(Thank you in Advance, whoever you are)

I am free ..........to be able to go sit and sip coffee, and relax (coming soon)
I am free ..........to be able to associate with high calibre people not only yellow canaries

I am free ..........to walk by the seaside and take the moment in with my eyes closed, feel the gentle breeze on my face and my breath in my body.

I am free ..........to let the creative part of my being to live again,,,,,,,,and express itself
(largest sigh of breath release, here)

I am free to be Me..............................

While this forum was not the source of my being able to verify the truth that I learned through trusted sources it helped me enormously with the process of my shock grief and pain and shortened the time to move forward
I will be continuing to keep a close eye in here for the many tiny gems. Thankfully yours

Roman

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 2:08am

Talents

During this almost flawless transition from the old forum to
the new platform I was really amazed how good, smart and talented people can
bring something to fruition. First of all I would like to thank to all of those
who were and still are helping (hoping that it will continue :nod: ) and then I would
like to ponder a little bit about talents being used, misused and abused. The
latter comes to my mind with thinking about my days in yidl. There were always talented and capable people part of the organization. SwAmi would first support
the talents of the individuals to inspire them to start working selflessly for
him. But everybody knows what happens when you can freely use your creativity
and talent. You succeed (of course with some bumps in the road) eventually and
it makes you feeling good about yourself, your self-confidence grows and your
ego too. Well, there is no problem with healthy ego if you are an independent
individual. The problem starts when somebody tries making you dependent on him.
Once swAmi saw that person’s success in something had brought the healthy ego
up, he would start smashing it down. Everybody remembers how much stupid fuzz
was always created about his chapattis or food in general. People, who were
great artists, doctors, engineers, architects and/or just any person with a
valuable skill, were always put down (as part of the great master’s “leela”) in
some area of their incompetence. I never understood at that time why I should
be a good chapatti maker or Hindu or green card supplier. I wasn’t either of
those. I understand now that some of it was his need to have us as a complete
servants. To train everybody in such a way that he could suck them out
completely (have you seen Matrix?). Other part of it was to cut that healthy
ego and individuality. Every thought that wasn’t about his greatness had to be
destroyed. From a talented free individual you became a good servant and
eventually very useful slave. I had seen people who gave many years of their lives
to him being depressed and completely down because “they couldn’t satisfy His
needs”. Well, that was the point. Some of them, after they got through it, graduated
into the useful slaves. They are those who are the loudest today about swAmi’s
innocence, the absolutely loyal crowd who gave up their talents for their
master because he makes them feel happy and peaceful all the time. Those being
sucked by robots in Matrix were also feeling happy and peaceful all that time.
And some of them left, myself included.


There is no talent without healthy individuality. Free
thinking and real creativity in every possible field of human endeavor does not
happen in constrains of an absolute dependency. You work hard and long until
the very end. Then you leave for the promise of freedom, but how the heck you
really know that you didn’t waste your life for a mirage? I also work hard and
long hours. But I don’t waste my time with promises of mirages from somebody whose
only concern is his riches, power and pleasure. In that case I rather deal
directly with myself (same thing) and maybe I can realize something that way.
It costs less and saves my nerves.
;)

Tony

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 4:18am

Yes, daily humiliation in the name of eradicating one's ego was the game.

Rationalizations circulated, asserting that if the guru is really nasty to you, that means he is "working on you", you are a promising disciple. On the other hand, if he is kind, that means you must be a hopeless, un-enlightenable case: the master has given up. This led to people actually competing for who gets humiliated most and proudly trading relevant anecdotal evidence.

In my opinion, there is a vast difference between ego and self-esteem. SwAmi's techniques actually strengthen the former and nearly eliminate the latter. A person with deeply negative self-esteem has in fact a huge ego. Such person is completely introverted, self-absorbed. The feelings of profound worthlessness won't admit anybody else into their head space. In the extreme cases, all that is left is one deeply humiliated, me.

The point is, after all this questionable training is applied, you are left in far worse shape psychologically, than when you entered.


In contrast, I love the classic Zen story of "Your cup is too full". It shows a gentle, inoffensive, and even funny way of giving someone a nudge, just to shake them out of their arrogance, but without causing them any psychological harm. The Zen master in the story just pointed out, with quite charming theatrics, that the disciple was acting like a douche.

I once walked into my favourite, rather eccentric, boss's office, and started whining about one thing or another, and overall acting like a spoiled child. He dramatically got up, eyebrows tightly knitted together, all intense, looking deeply interested in my complaints, and, with his utmost Shakespearean pathos, (and Lithuanian accent) he boomed: "Tony, you believe me! Your problems are my priority. Priority number seven!"

What a sweet way to say to "F... off". It worked. I just woke up and laughed.

I guess, all I am saying is you can put people in their place far more effectively by not acting like our ex guru...

speakup

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 10:36am

That always seemed to be the story that if people were being humiliated by S. that was really good medicine for them. The humiliation was often done in a very public way. Of course this creates a climate of fear - we all think 'am I going to be next'. I always felt afraid of him - not sure why I didn't listen to this gut feeling.

Interesting that one of the things that children are taught to help them avoid abusive situations is that they should always listen to their feelings - if something doesn't feel right and you feel afraid - say no and get away as fast as you can!

Veritas

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 11:01am

That always seemed to be the story that if people were being humiliated by S. that was really good medicine for them. The humiliation was often done in a very public way. Of course this creates a climate of fear - we all think 'am I going to be next'. I always felt afraid of him - not sure why I didn't listen to this gut feeling.

Interesting that one of the things that children are taught to help them avoid abusive situations is that they should always listen to their feelings - if something doesn't feel right and you feel afraid - say no and get away as fast as you can!

Fear is the most powerful tool to keep people under control. Many of those who stayed, are controlled by fear.
Fear has many faces.
It can be hidden - and people act, driven by it - without even knowing, that fear is the driving force behind their actions. The most common ones are:
  • Fear of SM himself, because of supposed "Siddhis" :?:
  • Fear from "jumping off the ship" an being eaten by "sharks and crocodiles" (eq. "Maya")
  • Fear from facing the fact of having fallen for a fraud (devastating for self-esteem)
  • Fear of losing the community and substitute-family and/or friends
  • Fear of collapse of the own model of reality :!:
  • Fear of losing the position of being chosen, being "special"
  • Fear of not being able to reproduce various states of bliss, as experienced through the practice

abusemaheshwarananda paramhans swami

Veritas

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 12:41pm

Some additional thoughts on this:
  • Fear of SM himself, because of supposed "Siddhis" :?:
If he was to have such powerful "Siddhis", why does that forum exist?
  • Fear from "jumping off the ship" an being eaten by "sharks and crocodiles" (eq. "Maya")
Just a myth, implanted in your head to induce fear and keep you going. Never question, never leave. Be the perfect slave.
  • Fear from facing the fact of having fallen for a fraud (devastating for self-esteem)
There is nothing wrong with making mistakes. In fact, mistakes are golden opportunities to learn and to grow.
We only fail, if we do not learn by our mistakes.
  • Fear of losing the community and substitute-family and/or friends
What is the value of a "friend" if the very base and condition of that friendship is, that you share the same philosophy?
Reconnect to those you were told to neglect ("Kushang"). That was also a trap to alienate you, to estrange you from your
environment, so you become more dependent and would have to face huge loss, in case you would leave.
  • Fear of collapse of the own model of reality :!:
If that reality turns out to be illusionary, it's well worth to let it collapse. Something old has to die in order for
something new to arise.
  • Fear of losing the position of being chosen, being "special"
This builds up on our need to express our own individuality, but works out to do exactly the opposite. Express
your own individuality by being yourself, do not allow somebody to take over your life. Make your own choices
and take responsibility for them.
  • Fear of not being able to reproduce various states of bliss, as experienced through the practice
These states are NOT connected to the system, even thou the system might have helped to experience them.
If you want to continue the practice, do it. If you want to try different ways, go for it. If you want to use the
system, why don't you take the original one, that one, which was the blueprint, from where SM has copied?
http://www.yoga-anandaverlag.de/yoga-books

speakup

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 1:00pm

Well analysed Veritas (10/10) so then the question is how to manage these fears?
For me, and I suspect for others this is a critical issue - how to loosen these subtle and not so subtle attachments - not an easy process - leaving is just the first step.
So much for being a 'soft cult'! :crazy:

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 1:06pm

so then the question is how to manage these fears?
First step: becoming aware of them. ;)

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 2:23pm

I would just add very simple example of kindergarden and the rules and regulations etc...it's similar, you are there with the kids, one among the kids in the group (with specially elected elders of course aka swamis, the officers:))), you listen to the teachers and your eating and everything is simply regulated this or that way, like a spiritual camp, where all unite under one Idea;

individual kids cannot sprout there, they can only be copy/paste replicas, cause the formal structure of the Ideology does not permit the variety; otherwise it would be just a hippie-chaotic community with everybody doing what they want, and we don't want that either, right?;))),

so, the best way I guess, is the "stay at distance", do your thing but leave me alone, thank you;)), we love each other so much, that's nice, as long as you stay on your distance;))..."c'mon kids, it's dinner time and than we will take a short nap!" Kido: "but I want to draw my picture..." Teacher: "It's a nap time, leave the picture alone and go to sleep!", Obedience is the LAW! :crazy:

speakup

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 9:41pm

Quoted

Obedience is the LAW!
Yes and we are very social creatures and very easily influenced by those around us, especially when we see everyone doing a particular behaviour eg. wearing yellow clothes, singing funny songs, bowing, vegetarian etc. We want to be accepted and belong, to feel part of the group so if we stay we tend to conform to the group norms and expectations. Then of course we are rewarded for these changes in behaviour - which further increases our sense of belonging.
All groups are like this to some extent, even at work, school etc. The difference with this groups is that there is a hidden agenda, which is not at all obvious when you just go along to a nice satsang (cheap food, friendly people), attend a weekend workshop or a lecture of a visiting 'guru'. When you begin to change your behaviour you think you are undergoing some sort of spiritual transformation. On some level you might be - lots of yoga, healthy food, clean living - but on another level there is another process at work - learning total obediance, learning to suppress critical thinking, suppressing uneasy or uncomfortable feelings and so on. :wacko:

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Thursday, October 27th 2011, 11:03pm

so then the question is how to manage these fears?
First step: by becoming aware of them. ;)
And afterwards, ridicule and laugh at them.
Good humour is a great medicine for many kinds of fear.

PallasAthene

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Friday, October 28th 2011, 12:46am

@speakup: how to manage that fear?

Fear is a bad advisor. Don't take a decision because of this emotion. Fear has been a good defense and a great tool during our past evolution. Be aware that fear is originally caused by our instinct. The brain stem is our first developed brain which locates the areas for decisions like sympathy and stay, attack or to do a runner. That decisions will almost be taken in our first brain, which is programmed by our ancestors living in the Stone Age. Fear activates a cascade of hormones which should make your body ready to run away or to attack.

The most successful way maybe to keep calm and to wait that the emotion comes down. Then you maybe be able to analyze from which part your fear comes from. To live also means to die one day and to leave all behind. Accepting this points nothing can bring you into a fear excepting an instinctively emotion. In any way you should hug your fear (thanks for the alert, i will now watch/analyze the situation, you can come down) and check which potential loss makes you feel in such a way. You should take all the time you need for such examination and go step by step. Also you have learnt a lot by practising yoga. Use it for your balance if it feels good for you.

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Friday, October 28th 2011, 10:59am

Thank you, all good comments and useful.

Something I would add is that this is a process that takes some time and some inner work. Observing the fears and letting them go is good, but it is also an important process to identify what is triggering fear or anxiety after leaving.

Part of cult life involves phobia indoctrination. For example, we might develop phobias about food - being seriously committed to Y... involves being a strict vegetarian - being vegetarian may be a really healthy personal choice to make and based on personal moral and ethical values about killing animals.

But what if our decision to be strict vegetarian is really based on wanting to belong, of demonstrating commitment to S. and to the organisation. Then the decision to be vegetarian is really tied up with some other stuff. So when we eat an egg, or start craving some meat we might feel guilty, like we are not being good 'bhaktas', we might feel that we are 'impure' not 'sattvic' anymore. So this choice is is no longer really based on values about animal welfare but on pleasing the 'guru' in some way, of fitting in, of becoming pure. Another phobia linked to this is if we believe that Big O has siddhis, then we might believe that he knows we are doing something that is not 'sattvic'. :fool;

Since leaving I have started eating eggs, fish, and some meat (did I hear a sharp intake of breath from some of you?). Does this make me a bad person or impure - I don't think so! In fact I have a lot more energy, feel much healthier.

This is just one personal example of how fears and phobias can be challenging to unpack :rolleyes: (Love the smileys!)

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Friday, October 28th 2011, 5:29pm

I guess we all have our reasons, for being vegetarian or not, and not just vegetarianism, but the whole structure of your beliefs, attitudes, concepts etc...and we really differ here; some really process one sort of stuff some process other issues, and even if we speak about the same subject there are different standpoints or better reasons, why somebody does something;

for me for example vegetarianism fits nicely and it suits me, regardless of what spirituality says, it's just more easier and cleaner, and I don't even think about it anymore, in categories or terms of "I am a vegetarian", when I am hungry I eat, otherwise I don't put much attention to the food beyond this urge; and when I eat I enjoy it of course, but than I am not bothered with it; and if people who are/were vegetarians for this or for that reason and than later they see they still want to try or eat the meat, it's something they probably never really 'overcame',

and it is more sincere to eat the meat and not pretend for the sake of some reasons which come form some outside source,,but if you feel and know what suits you best, than you should know how to stand behind it and be ready to support your decisions and actions; as long as someone knows why he eats or doesn't eat meat than it's ok,,but if somebody follows the trend etc. it's just ridicuolous; or when people say: in 4 days I will quit cigarettes,,bulls--hit..either quit, either smoke like the Turk and don't talk nor think about it, but please do not speak that you will quit in 4 days, why not in 6 or 1 or 45 etc...,,

just smoke the damn thing like you should, withut regrets, cause you will die anyway, and if you want to fasten the process you can do it;))), anyway, there are some who drink and smoke and do crazy sh--t and still live longer etc...well, depends what you want or you are into...it's interesting,,some find along the way things that didn't probably suited them in any case, like vegetarianism,,but in my case the main problem was philosophical one, traditional one, problems of traditions, of me believing in those traditions to some extent, presupposing the great knowledge and self-possession of those highly elevated spirits, and all this in contrast to the social matrix, what comes out of it, is regardless of the benefits and help to the people etc,,

it's still something weird and all this power-game end divine trip of all-knowingness and all the people around which gather for the same cause etc,,,this brotherhood, community under one Master, is ideologically totally against my early attitudes and rules, starting from the kindergarden already; I was a nice kid, but if you tell me to sit in that way and not in some other way, than I ask myself immediately, why?

and what are the reasons , deep reasons behind the rules and laws and regulations of teachers and masters,,no real reasons,,just some contingent rules that look like necessary and universal,,that's the whole drama of morality and psirituality, to put the universally formal rules and to stick to the rules so that your soul may grow within the blossoming garden of do's and dont's;)))

I am just irritated by all these bunch of godmen and new age agenda and all the mumbo jumbo of spiritual promises and vague bull--hit (and it's still something I can not really comprehend, how the fu..k did I let myself became at some point subservient,,,a to become bhakta and to reach God, but becoming more of a pu...sy, totally anti-me form the beginning, the circumstances, the influences from books, friends etc,,,and the general flow and identification of me as some future wise/holy man satwic bull--hit, falling for the 'Tito-figure' like in communist regime), the rigid master-diisciple realtionship etc...and even the masters are not immune to this structure; they fall in the role of master and are caught by it, they serve it, servants of their own mastership; and there is no way how to detect who is who,,except by saying, testimonials, beliefs and just plain belief, and if they are charismatic enough, bingo! You are going for a nice ride and it will be fun, supporting the project of godmen, following their footsteps and speaking in their name, another servant of the servant's servant of the servants servant of the master servant of then grandmaster's master of the master....;)

Of course, I can tell myself retroactively the story, of what happened, what where the circumstances and that is all what we have; we were caught in a certain story,,and now we redefine it, and we redifine also the past through this,,,past is also changeable, we change the scope of lookin and everything appears differently, we change not only present going towards the future but we change also the past,,,this is a part of the process which is already changing the whole strata of your phenomenon...

with current understanding we retroactvively change also the meaning of the past and thus present and future...